"Does not play well with others..."

[tugrik]

There's an hour of my life I wish I could get back and do something productive with. I just spent a little while reading the overabundance of screaming-pissed threads over on the ADV-Rider forum. Evidently the place is imploding, and all it took was a tiny little external reality check.

The board has become dominated over the last year by one of the sub-forums, called "JoMomma". It's the screw-around-and-rant spillover area. It's run the gamut of everything from smutty to political to racially insensitive to sexist and then back around again for more. For the most part I avoid it and live on the other, more interesting subfourms -- the ones about trip reports, equipment, ride planning, etc. Even with all the good stuff in the other forums, the critical mass of JoMomma has finally started to spill over everywhere and the board was waaaay beyond the healthy point of Content vs. Noise. The board-owner let this go on far too long because he's actually got a Real Life to lead; I can totally appreciate his position, having been in it myself on various forums and/or Mucks that have had this same class of problem.

Most folks like me just kind of ignored it and stuck to the good bits... so those entrenched in the JoMomma forum revved up to new levels of depravity while we weren't watching (or caring). Then one of our members, a rather stern but honorable fellow I got to meet on more than one good ride, was up at the local biker's hangout named Alice's when he got the reality check. He met two GS1150 riders he'd never met before, and as usual asked them if they'd heard of ADV-Rider, and if they wanted to come drop by.

They both said they had -- and in fact, were lurkers there. They both said, however, that they'd pretty much pegged the site as a hate-board full of petty, thuggish "Look At Us We're Studly Jerks" biking idiots, and they were more than glad to stop visiting it and go on to the other GS-rider places like Micapeak. The impression was given in a short amount of time that the site was pretty much full of intolerant,inconfident males who were lashing out at folks since they were unhappy with themselves.

They rode off to go enjoy their ride without worrying about it... but the ADVRider fellow came back and reported what he just heard on the forum. That post was a test-tap against status-quo of the board... which was apparently fragile enough that it immediately cracked, and within 48 hours is showing a possibility of completely shattering. Already two moderators have resigned, one long-term "Regular" did a full net-removal (deleted all his posts, threads, and his account), and the remaining troublemakers are lashing out at each other trying to staple the blame on anybody but themselves. The whole time the site admin, back from a 90 hour workweek, just takes one look at it and sighs and shakes his head, making vague grumbles about nuking big gobs of the place if it's not died down when he comes back after a good nap.

I like the folks I've met via the board. It's led me to do some incredible things, biker-wise. But, at the same time, I realize it's mostly a testosterone playground that's got way too many folks that could use a good boot to the head. Like a group of afterschool bullies they've driven off many people, including a few locals I know like Timberwoof... but now that they got a good look in the mirror they're lashing out 'cause they don't like what they see. I think I'll just move that URL to the bottom of my 'to visit' page for a few weeks and come back after all the dust settles. I hope something's there when I return.

Why don't I stick around and try to help fix and save it? Well, I've already got enough administrative hassles with exactly the same thing over on FM.

---

In FM's case, it's known as the West Corner of the Park... in specific, when the gamer-geeks and Night Crew take it over. Much like ADVRider and it's way-too-busy board owner letting the JoMomma forum swell up until it threatened to topple his board, the behaviors going on in WCotP, especially at night, have gotten far too annoying for far too long, and the admins (of which I'm one) really haven't done enough about it. I'm probably more guilty than most, as I made a big effort to help it a while ago, but just let it lax as I started having less and less time to get on the muck in the late-evenings.

To generalize the problem, it's that the WCotP is considered the 'foyer' of the muck. It's the center of the virtual topology, where new characters and guests are first released into the world. It's also the center of two major cross streets and a main destination on most teleport and taxi lists. Consider it a 'town center'. Many diverse people end up in this space. Some are new (guests and new characters). Some are just out to be seen (it's a good public meeting spot) and want to roleplay. Others, and here's the problem, are the 'regulars'. The regulars are usually gamer types ranting on about the kind of things you see in Penny Arcade or pick the videogame-forum-of-your-choice. They've developed a bit of a loose friend-group and a heirarchy of social interaction. They're not quite as cohesive as an actual gang of bullies or anything, but they definately have put together some social-norms that are anything but newbie friendly.

In specific, they tend to stomp on anything they don't care for. It's a *anthropomorphic fandom muck* for fark's-sake, and it's perfectly normal for people to roleplay. However, if someone comes out and tries to do it, all the regulars pounce on them. Many of them think they're helping stamp out smut, as unforunately too many people confuse online sexual interaction for roleplay... something we don't allow in the public PG13 areas like WCotP. Others just hate the noise of someone trying to be playful and fanciful in the middle of their BEST GAME EVAR!1!! chat. Most of them, while they won't admit it, are out to impress each other with just how 'in' they can be. One or more of the social leaders will start a trend (such as the TALK IN ALL BADLY TYPED L33T CAPS, jeffK style) or spread a meme (such as 'all roleplayers are stupid oversexed idiots, ghey, and must be bashed') and the rest of the sheep will follow along. Sometimes it takes weeks, other times months.

As a result, whenever a wiz isn't around the WCotP is usually staked-and-claimed as turf by this nebulous group. Most of the time they're just passing the hours rattling on about games, which is harmless... but the moment someone not in their cluster shows up, it's like throwing meat to dogs. PG13 is regularly broken (yay, swearing), guests abused, and even the harmless and fully-PG roleplay sorts get driven off by attitude or spam-drowning. Each individual action by each individual person usually isn't all that bad -- but as a group they get a seriously in-control vibe going. They know it, feel it... and love it. It's addictive, like being on any 'in' crowd is. It's easy to see why this becomes self-reinforcing. If you show up and help them bash on the newbies... hey, you're part of the 'cool people' now. Much better than being one of those new people getting bashed.

This really sucks because the WCotP is what most newbies see first... and therefore, this behavior is seen as the norm for the whole of the muck.

This problem has been here off and on for years, literally. It's so entrenched that there is no easy solution. Mix in the fact that FM is run by volunteers who pretty much want to stay out of the players' ways and Just Let them Play, and it's again easy to see how this problem can escalate. For the most part we don't enjoy whapping down players, and the 'easy fix' of simply nuking everybody involved (for a while or permanently) just isn't palatable within our developed administrative style. When lines are crossed we do throw people offline, but it's few and far between. There's a lot of hope with each individual whapping that folks will get a clue and clean up their act... but we never really whap enough of them at the same time to break up the feeling of self-empowerment that group bullying/baiting brings.

---

There are times I fear FM crumbling from things like this, if they're let go way too long. Sure, the WCotP isn't that big of a deal in comparison to the huge size of the rest of the muck and the playerbase. But at the same time -- we're no longer #1, and haven't been for a while. Tapestries and other sites now have huge playerbases... and from what I've been told, far less rules/restrictions. What gets me, however, is a situation much like got my fellow ADVRider when he was up at Alice's.

I've met people on other servers (HLM, There, etc) and in RL (at conventions) that I've asked, "Hey, are you on FurryMUCK?" More than once I've gotten an answer that whapped me good, right across the muzzle. Sometimes it's "ugh, no, it's full of jerks. I showed up as a guest and got treated like crap.". Other times it's "oh, that place? They've got too many rules and they want my damn RL info before I can play. Noooo way.". What used to be the most open-format, open-acceptance place, muckwise, is now seen by some as a bit of a nazi-box with a spiked-pit for a welcome mat. That makes me a bit upset, as it means there's a lot of new players out there that might have done wonderful things in FM's world if they'd not been driven off before they even got started.

Sure, if you're already a long-time player and you spend your time with buddies off in your own areas -- this isn't a problem. You know the good parts and enjoy them. It just sucks in that it makes a place stagnant. FM was far more interesting in its first 4 or 5 years, as the crowds increased and changed. Nowadays it's really hard for a newbie to get into the swing of things without being turned away, or at least turned bitter.

There's no easy solution. Our vast mass of rules and character-creation restrictions have been built up over time like a thousand little scars from a thousand tiny pinpricks. Do we get harsh and start smiting folks until clues are gained, at the expense of possibly wrecking most of a decade of built up rule and precedent? (well, we DO have the 'right to refuse service...' clause, but we've never used it so unilaterally.) Do we start losing RL free time and assign shifts to wizards to simply sit there in the park and glower at people until they freakin' get the clue they can't misbehave -- they're being watched? Or do we just let it keep going, only firing at the rare misbehaving player that actually sticks their head up far enough past the line to give us a clear shot, doing nothing about the big gang of toe-the-line park-denizens that consider the place "theirs"?

Eh. It's probably not all that bad. It just seems like it some nights. It also sucks that I know and like most of the folks involved. I just wish they'd go get clues on their own instead of pushing us admins until we force 'em to.

Comments

[turbinerocks.livejournal.com]

I'm a gamer, I talk to those people because I work nights, but I totally agree. They're not quite as acidic as burned fur types, but I wonder sometimes why the hell they're there, if they're so opposed to roleplaying, and seemingly pretty hostile to the fandom.

I suppose one solution would be to move some stuff around, so that the WCoTP is not the nexus that it is now, or make it RP only, and chase the non-RP folks to a place just off the WCoTP. I don't mind Rl talk, in fact it's usually what I engage in, but it's probably better that the RL talk is relegated to a specific spot apart from a main gathering point. The Tavern on Tapestries is a specific RL chat spot, but it's not the welcome mat that the Park is. That would likely keep the acidicy to a dull roar, as the 'too-cool-for-you' crowd isn't big into the RP.

Can you log park conversations? Maybe a posting in the park that dissing roleplayers is not to be tolerated, and punishments escalate from a slap on the rist to being banned from a certain period of time.

[ninjaseg.livejournal.com]

For one thing, if you listened for a second, half the game talk is about role playing games and table top RPGs?

Every think that maybe many of us are avid roleplayers and are disgusted to see it dirtied by pathetic powergamers and TS twinks?

Also if you payed attention, it is not roleplaying we hate, it is not the fandom we hate, it is not furries we hate, it is not ignoracne we hate, our enemy is downright brutal stupidity. If someone comes on as a guest and the first words out of their mouth are "hey ne1 want 2 yiff?" we'll tell them they're being stupid and yes, jump down their throats if they show no indication of posessing the capacity to understand that such a question is inappropriate.

Now if you or your friends have been a victim this, then maybe you should step back and ask yourself: "Could I suffer from brutal stupidy and not realise it?". The first step to getting better is to admit you have a problem.

With any established social group there's always a tendancy towards "initiations", the night crew is hardly the only ones to do any such things. There's plenty of people in the 'day crew' who harass guests and newbies worse than we do. Most of the time we don't even notice guests or newbies, they have to display some real quality stupidity for us to even notice them.

In the end, your the wizard Tug. Who stays and who goes is up to you. Just take some time to find out whats REALLY going on.

[barberio.livejournal.com]

I've made myself persona non grata with the night crew by atempting to ask them not to pull this crap. However, as their most sophisticated method of impuging someones character is to type 'LAMAR 1S ThE FAG NeTC0P!!!1!!', its not something I'm going to loose sleep over. I do of course, reserve the right to mock them as much as I can.

[zeeth_kyrah]

Insulting us does not help your point.

[ikkyu2.livejournal.com]

It's often occurred to me over the years, as I witness these kind of behaviors live and online, that the "right to peaceable assembly" is in fact a good way to ensure that nothing productive can happen.

[dajagr.livejournal.com]

One has to wonder if shouting down people who simply want to enjoy themselves, going to the point of mocking them and even virtually physically abusing them, can at all be called "peaceable."

[talisantia.livejournal.com]

Most of the night crew aren't that bad individually... it's just as a group that they start escalating each other to the point that decent people don't want to be around them. I can't imagine how rough your position must be. *hug* Hang in there.

As for me, I refuse to let them bother me. I'm going to hang out. I'm going to roleplay, I'm going to be affectionate and have fun with my friends, well within the rules, and if they don't like it, they can kiss my shapeshifting little Drow butt.

[spotweld.livejournal.com]

Hey Tug, thanks. Pass that on to the other wizzes if you get the chance.

I've been on FM for about 6 years now. Not much compared to some, but during that time I've been lucky enough to have made some friends and a huge list of regular acquaintances. Some of which have become good friends in real life as well. The work you and the other wizzes have put in behind the scenes is defiantly appreciated.

Again, thanks. You're work has allowed more than one good community to grow.

[perlandria.livejournal.com]

Every once in a while I try to sit out the park, to do a neighborhood watch sort of reclaiming thing and whisper welcome graciously. But it is very disheartening to do it alone.

[queenofstripes.livejournal.com]

Who are you there, hon? We'll start a covert Welcome Wagon squad. ;)

[shabm.livejournal.com]

Another problem is much of the Night Crew which you are referring to actively hate furries and the furry fandom. They take great pride in ruining the muck for others.

One command I had requested was a 'votesweep' command; on a majority vote, a disruptive fur could be swept out of a room for a period of time. But then the Night Crew would votesweep all non-Night Crew members. You can't win.

-- Shanya Almafeta, still mucking despite them.

[(Anonymous)]

I think you're being a little extreme here in several regards. First of all, on the sweep thing.
A) If you've ever really watched the night crew in action, getting them all to agree on something is next to impossible.
B) Don't be so hasty to say they'd sweep everyone who's different. A lot of us gamers have friends and aquaintances we like chatting with - Which is why we hang out at the park.
C) Us gamer types don't even sweep guests that much until they become very belligerent, and even then nobody will sweep sometimes.
D) To turn it around, I could say some people would happily sweep some gamers when they're in the minority; Or everyone they would consider to be in the night crew, just to keep them from the park, as if it's some moral high ground to be held.

Secondly, about the charges of hate:
The 'night crew' is not some well-organized commitee. Even some people who call themselves night crew are occasionally confused as to who is in it and who isn't. Some who dislike this bunch will lump people who happen to be on during the night in the park, who they have problems with, into the group - as if calling it some 'Axis of Evil'. Out of the people who I'm sure are within this nebulous 'organization', not that many really hate all furs and the MUCK and everything. For some, mostly boils down to finding the extremes repulsive (Plushophilia, furry porn, Doug Wingeresque models with four giant hoobamajoobs and a moped-sized thingamabob, and such), while more moderate things are oft ignored or have a few jokes cracked at them at worst. For others, just something to chuckle at or avoid. I've noticed much worse from some people on hating gamers, hating political parties, hating certain religions.
The problems of arguing in the park, scaring off guests, and telling off RPers existed back in '96 when I first got to the MUCK, and I didn't even notice much of a gamer group in the park til around 2000, or possibly late '99. The problems probably existed well before I even first got here. It's just that now people have a name they can pin the ills of the MUCK on, as if some imaginary 'Axis of Evil'.

-Welly

P.S. Yes, I can use capitals and proper punctuation and even big words when I feel like it.

Fire and sword.

[(Anonymous)]

IMNSHO, the most effective way to deal with the night crew or similar problems elsewhere is to take a step back, take a deep breath, and realise it's the WizCorp's *right* to act with dictactorial impunity. Then go in and smack the people you think need smacking. You'll feel a lot better, and the rest of us will probably thank you for it.

The same principle applies to cases like Random or (to a lesser extent) Dragonoix (and, presumably, Lumpy). Following conservative guidelines prolongs whatever problem exists.

Or just give Points and Slipstream wizbits again and a license to LART as they see fit };>. That'll solve at least some of the problem =^.^=.

I'd suggest implementing something like the vote-to-sweep program I proposed, but that's too easily subverted.

Regards,
-Deuce

Re: Fire and sword.

[tuftears.livejournal.com]

Not a bad idea...

[paka.livejournal.com]

Not that you asked but; I actively hate the park, and it really has helped totally turn me off FM. What really gets me is the way the park group talks shit about furries and how they, of course, are too intellectually and morally superior to be furry fans... well, gee, if they wanted to do the whole trendy POE thing, maybe they could chose a location to do it other than an anthropomorphic themed MUCK? The only solution I could think of would be, being a Hessian about the park, at the same time making an new and easy to find (as memorable as "tport un, up") game-oriented location. But I know a batch of wizzes, enough to know you guys are incredibly pragmatic, and if would work, you'd have done it already.

[ninjaseg.livejournal.com]

POE is the Portal of Evil. NOT the portal of crappy web sites. The only reason POE bashes furries is because a certain former furry/burned fur type (forget his name now) came along and became an admin, then started flooding the place with crappy furry yiff sites. All the POE old-timers are getting rather pissed at all the furry bashers he's attracted.

Most of us have been on the muck much longer than POE has been bashing furries. Our bitterness at yiff monkies has nothing to do with POE.

[genet.livejournal.com]

They've got too many rules and they want my damn RL info before I can play. Noooo way."

As I'm sure you're aware, this is a big problem. I know FM has to require an email address as part of age verification and making sure that the person creating the account doesn't have 6 or 7 alts laying around taking up db space. But.. the admin has gone a bit far, I think, on the rules for email addresses. I cannot use my legitimate ISP's email address to create a character. I cannot use my actual email address (we run our own web and email servers) to create a character. If I wanted to create a character, and I didn't have a work email, I'd be screwed. Or I'd have to borrow an address on a "legitimate" domain and use that person's registration information, which kind of defeats the purpose there.

It's not an easy solution, but I know of three people that gave up on creating characters on FurryMuck because they got rejections for 'non-valid' email address for every email account they had.

There's a lot more I could say, but.. I don't know the whole situation. I'm sure you guys are doing the best you can.. Sometimes it's easy to overlook small solutions.

[perlandria.livejournal.com]

You can still smail mail a physical request, last I checked. I'm not staff, I'm not anything really but I try to let guests who express that frustration know about that option.

My 2 bits on the Night Crew and thier behavior.

[(Anonymous)]

Actually, It can be that bad. As Talisantia said,
individually, they aren't that much to fear. But
then again, so is the individual wandering dog.
Get a few together and that pack mentality kicks
in and they become very dangerous. I have seen
them savage individuals who just happened to be
in the wrong place at the wrong time, and even
those who were not even there to even try to
defend themselves. Even driving some of thier
victims almost to the point of leaving FM
entirely.

I have seen two of their number crash another
MUCK, because they didn't like it, while the
rest cheered them on like conquering heroes.
They publically state that they are not even
fans of the furry genre, and don't even like
furries or the fandom and its various elements.

The y have stated that they would go elsewhere
but they don't know where, or how to make
thier own area on the MUCK. So they stake
out the park as thier own.

They appear to be at thier worst when there are
no wizzes about to counter them when they do
thes e things. Perhaps that is why they do these
things at these hrs, maybe they figure that
they will never be caught, or reported then.

IMHO, the best course of action would be to give
them enough rope and watch them hang themselves.
One day someone is go ing to get savaged by them,
and this person is going to report them and
have a log of the whole thing. Then you will
have all the evidence needed to act against the
group and make and an example of all of them in
one swift blow. Videotaped rioters get caught,
the same thing applies with these people and
logs of thier actions.

--Dancougar.
“““{

Part of the solution...

[haystack.livejournal.com]

...is to provide places where people can hang out, cuddle, RP, and chat without fear of being ripped a new one by a pack of jerks... and where PG-13 is enforced as well as it can be without being unnecessarily restrictive on speech. I started running such a chat-room under my alt Xenia last year. It seemed to be getting a regular clientele before RL issues caused me to curtail my MUCKing for about six months.

I'm hoping I can get the place going again and keep it on the WA for most of each day by having round-the-clock moderation (or as much of the clock as can be covered). We'll see what comes of it. :)

Re: Part of the solution...

[(Anonymous)]

Part of the solution is to provide places where people can hang out, cuddle, RP, and chat without fear of being ripped a new one by a pack of jerks... and where PG-13 is enforced as well as it can be without being unnecessarily restrictive on speech. I started running such a chat-room under my alt Xenia last year. It seemed to be getting a regular clientele before RL issues caused me to curtail my MUCKing for about six months.

We already have several such areas. The problem is not that they don't exist, but that the Park isn't one of them. Because it's central to many of the transport systems and because it's where guests and newly-created furs appear, it's going to remain the welcoming ground.

I've already outlined my favourite solution in a previous post =^.^=. A less drastic alternative would simply be to @banish anyone who destroys whatever the desired atmosphere is semi-permanently. That would force the night crew or the hostile-entity-du-jour to lurk elsewhere.

Regards,
-Deuce

[shatterstripes.livejournal.com]

Most of my visits to Furry begin with a visit to the Park, to check the board there. It's usually pretty gruelling. Sometimes I'll stick around if someone who's actually interesting comes in, but, ye gods, it's just this total hive of stupidity. Perpetual penis-waving, video-game babble, and MUCH MAKING WITH TEH CAPITAL LETTERS AS TEHY ARE TEH FUNNAY from the "Night Crew".

Then I either slip off to the artist hangout - which has its own share of stoopids, but at least they're not such a loud pack of aggressive stupids - or home, or something.

---

I think this sort of thing happens to every wide forum after a while. I'm a moderator on the VCL forum, and while we try to keep it mostly useful, dedicated mostly to issues relating to making art or to the archive, there's one part that's just a festering canker of idiocy: the 'Introductions' forum, which Ch'marr had created out of frustration with newbs having the urge to do a 'Hi there' post.

Role-playing is banned on the forum, because, well, it ends up just being utterly stupid, and causes a lot of reloading that wastes even more bandwidth. Except for the Introductions forum. Because none of the mods want to look at the damn thing.

---

Next time we're in the Park, poke me and I'll take my larger form; we can start eating Night Crew.

That's one of the reasons that I don't hang out on Furry much.

[smackjackal.livejournal.com]

Okay, so I'm on furry pretty much all day but I'm only there to idle in my home and chate by page with friends I have there. Otherwise I'm on Tapestries wandering around and meeting new people. I started doing this a long time ago, before the Night Crew and other rude a-holes started showing up mostly because the signal to noise ratio on FurryMuck had started on a long, slow and steady decline.

In some ways I think that part of FurryMuck's success is also part of it's failure. It has gotten too big for it's form of governance. Over the years more and more rules and exceptions to the rules have been piled onto the server's AUP/TOS policy and there has been uneven enforcement of those rules and policies from case to case. I've seen issue get caught up in WizCore politics and grind to near stand still letting the offending issue continue longer than maybe it should and wizards going around each other's backs to get around the rules to help out friends and family. Other Mucks have fewer rules but they are FAR MORE CONSISTENT in the enforcement of the rules that they do have.

When you get down it, as I see it, the real problem with FurryMuck is that Wizards are trying to be too nice. It's like a big old party and nobody wants to be the asshole who calls the cops.

[PUSH HERE TO @TOAD]

[slipdragon.livejournal.com]

I just want to touch it. Honest. I won't push it. No, really.

I can resist the bright, candy-like button.

--Slip.

Re: [PUSH HERE TO @TOAD]

[chipuni.livejournal.com]

Chip sees his opportunity. He carefully puts the bright, shiny, candy-like @toading button in a large contraption that reads: "Instant Re-wizarding Toolkit". He carefully seeds the contraption with sound samples from Random, Cyllopodes, and the Night Crew:

"U FURIES ALL SUXX0R!"
"I oughtta be allowed to spam-page everyone on line, just because I can spam-page them all!"
"ALL U HELPSTAFF R EVIL! IM GONNA CALL A WIZZARD N U!"
"WARCRAFT 40K IS 4 FAGOTS!"
"A/S/L?"

Your yard. Your rules

[adequatemagic.livejournal.com]

While it's your nature to avoid conflict whenever possible, I would suggest that there are definately some times where folks might need the gentle prodding of a monocoeros hoof soundly paced in the buttockular region.

Facts:
Y'all do this for funsies. No one is making any money off this muck.

FurryMuck could in fact go away within the next ten minutes and that would be it. A couple of cords unplugged, a few command lines on the console, and farewell to all care.

Those who play on this beastie are there are the sufferance of those who do their best to keep it running soundly, and when someone repeatedly does things to disrupt the flow, they need to be told to stop that. If they don't stop it - the need a direct Darwinian Police Action.

I'll be dumb and say that if it comes down to it, some folks just plain need to feel the wrath of the SMITE button. If they claim they don't like it here, but can't or don't want to go elsewhere, they're either hypocrites, morons or both.

Re: Your yard. Your rules

[adequatemagic.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah. And what I've said here ain't nothing I haven't said in public, in the park, in front of some of the people who've taken offence, before.

Ya know?

[kategod.livejournal.com]

Yes. A bunch of people on furrymuck who hang out at night are the root of all evil and everything that's wrong with FurryMUCK. This makes alot of sense, thank you.

Tugrik, I'm sorry you're forced to listen to people bitch you out during the daytime about all this BS. But the fact remains that even if you were to kick off everyone that made others feel bad even without doing anything either directly to them or starting something they'll continue to find problems to bitch about incessantly.

At night, people in the park talk about games at times. I hear more talk about MSTron and Cartoon Network's Adult Swim myself. Anime talk, talk about bad comics, messing around and having fun with whoever's there. It's more a case of the night crew having a kind of sense of humor that would go with the stuff they play on Adult Swim and others not understanding because it's not KAWAII or staunchy roleplaying or because it's not badly spelled.

I think what's happening is everyone is seeing the night crew as the root of all evil because others are talking about them being so bad. It's not a case where they've actually seen or experienced it, they're going off heresay and that's enough for them to start the hate.

I don't know. Do whatever you want but it's not going to fix the situation. There's always problems in social groups no matter what you do.

Oh yeah. I'm sorry about that board you're on that's getting ruined. I haven't been on a Message Board yet that hasn't gone completely downhill.

[barberio.livejournal.com]

Kate. As someone who was subjected to personal verbal atack by you for the crime of expresing an opinion you had not asked for, I can say that your actions are not always rosey. I am also unsetled by you and Seg's declaration that I am persuing a vendeta against the Night crew because of this disagreement. Yours and Seg's asumption that I prompted Tugrik into this because "It seemed like something you do" is also unsetling.

Just as there is no official 'night crew' organisation and structure, so there is no conspiricy or vendeta against them. At escence this isnt even about them. Its about people not liking the language that the night crew use. Speaking in all caps is not a valid replacement for use of italics, and even italics can be annoying if you have to read a lot of it. Calling people who disagree with you 'Faggots' and 'Gay' is also just not on.

You have to respect that there is a line of respectible behaviour, and that far too often it is being steped over by people in the park. This is majorialy caused by people new to the park being given the bad example of others doing it.

[thorain.livejournal.com]

Keep in mind that while we're a clique of friends, not all of us share the same sentiments. It's not as though we're some kind of hive mind - we hang out with each other because we talk games of all types. It's a rather broad subject. None of us try to actively ruin anything for anyone, and many of the people whom are assumed to be "night crew" really aren't. Being a loose affiliation, it may seem like anyone that talks to us for an extended period of time is in league with us, working on what must no doubt seem like a sinister plan to outsiders who are looking in on the whole mess. Truth is, the most sinister plan we've ever come up with is "maybe we should all subscribe to an online game and get off the MUCK for a while." We like games, and we talk about games. That and irreverency are pretty much our common bonds, not some kind of all-consuming hatred for anyone or anything.

Holy Crap

[(Anonymous)]

Goddamn, that's the most lucid thing Thorain's ever said. Jesus CHRIST, he's fucking sober!!! Someone intoxicate this man, STAT! I need 22000 ccs of Captain Morgans, immediately!

Careful with your definitions

[(Anonymous)]

The term "Night Crew" is bandied about with a frighteningly solid definition. As if we were a defined, rigidly organized group of anti-furries, who deliberately infest the Park to destroy the pleasure of others. The Night Crew is, perhaps at most, five or six people who hang around, talk games, and often other subjects. We are not in control of who defines "The Night Crew" or what individuals who define themselves thusly do in the park. I would point to examples such as Molly_Devil for people who are generally considered by the large majority OF the Crew to be a member of the crew who likes Furry stuff. It is not fair to judge us as a whole that doesn't exist. It is not fair to define us when we do not subscribe to a definition as a group that does not exist. It is not fair to blame the loose group for the actions of individual members or even those who are thought of as belonging to this Crew who are, in fact, not considered to be such by whatever membership the crew actually has. We are not ravenous animals possessing the park for the sole purpose of destroying it. WE're gamers who talk. Some of us are furries. Others aren't. Some bash furries. You'd be surprised how frequently these incidents are blown up to be more than they are, or are in fact warranted by those who bash gamers first.

The park is an open 'hands off' kind of place to a certain extent. The wizards generally let it manage itself. This fosters an atmosphere that, I think, mirrors what Furry is about to some extent: letting people do their thing. If someone goes too far oppressing someone else's thing that has every right to be done in the park, fine, step on them. But don't blame an entire group, and a group I might add which is not the size, organization level, or intent that is ascribed to it, for the actions of individuals in the park. There are no strict organizations in the park, and the mere THOUGHT of imposing such organizations (by banning the "Night Crew" frightens me deeply, and goes very contrary to what I think is the spirit of FurryMUCK. As soon as you oppress one group, you open the door for a more oppressive, police-state spirit in general. I would like to say that I think that is a very bad atmosphere to foster.

When people go too far, the authorities of our hangout should be called in. Not against the night crew, but against offenders. Do not ascribe to a group that doesn't really exist in any formal sense people that don't belong in it.

Not a simple problem. No simple solution.

[arach.livejournal.com]

I've been hanging around the WCotP pretty much constantly since 1999. The "problem" is not with a select group of individuals, as the one group in question has only been in existance for a relatively short time. The park has been a cynical cesspool for as long as I have known it. Aside from banning cynicism and "making fun of stupidity", there's nothing that will change, except for the faces.

The park is central, yes, and as such, draws all sorts of types. That is the reason why I like to stay there - because of all the foolishness and the wanton stupidity that is displayed. (It is entertaining and helps re-assure me that there are others in this world who are dumber than I am.) As long as there are new arrivals, anonymous guests, and people in general, this will not change.

The illusion generated here is that while no one ever says anything GOOD about other furs, everyone and their mom has someone that they do not like, and they wish to speak to others about it; therefore, the park is seen as horrible, evil, and generally icky.

Lastly, once the whack-stick is brought to bear on the terrible WCotP residents in question, the next complaints will be sure to reference the actions taken there and suggest they also be taken -insert random meeting place here-. In other words, those overly sensitive attention-whore furs will now think they are in the right, and *expect* the wizzes to be at their beck and call in future matters. Is that really what is wanted?

So, what's the solution? Acting on the complaints and logic, I propose
1. Violators of PG-13 be banned
2. Stupidity be banned
3. Cynicism be banned
4. Sarcasm be banned
5. Mandatory "nice" behavior; dissenters banned

OR

Just deal with individuals that have been verified as a problem and let life go on.

-
Arach

[ninjaseg.livejournal.com]

Alright what this all comes down to is one whiney loser getting slighted by a couple people percieved to be members of the "night crew", this whiney person running home to their little group of friends, getting all of them in a tizzy and blaming every problem they've ever had on the "night crew", erupting into a mob mentality "whine crew" of their own who use the oppourtunity to pin their personal beefs on the "night crew" and cry to mommy, err I mean the wizcorps and whoever else will listen.

Meanwhile there's a vast majority of MUCK users who don't even notice or care, and a harmless group of friends being demonised as a whole because of a couple people are pissed off at few other people.

Don't let a few whiners ruin it for everyone. If you have a beef with someone, don't take it out on everyone.

[perlandria.livejournal.com]

I don't think the crew is a cohesive group.
But if you think the reaction to the overall tenor, attitude and habits of the loose affiliation of folks lumped into the night crew is an isolated and recent thing - then you haven't been paying attention. I've been hearing about people avoiding the gaming and eliteness spam in the park for at least a year.

A Fine Piece of Cinema* Once Said...

[(Anonymous)]

Why can't we work out our differences? Why can't we work things out? Little people, why can't we all just... get along?














* Mars Attacks! (1996)

[raindance.livejournal.com]

I'm particularly amused by the comments made by Deuce, Roon, and especially Tugrik. You all seem fine and dandy when you're in the park, occasionally conversing with us. Yet here you are, having a coniption over a loosely-formed group of individuals who just enjoy conversing about damn near anything in the park. If the problem was as bad as you think it is, I do believe you would've spoken up sooner than now.
That said, I do not appreciate being defined in such malicious terms as I see used above. Such exaggerations are not better than anything we're accused of. I know for a fact I'm an asshole, but I'm also fairly reasonable and willing to discuss any issue put before me. I'm sure Tugrik can attest to that. When I lash out against something, I do not force anyone else to lash out alongside me. If they choose to do so, that is their perogative. So when I lash out at the likes of Dragonoix picking up young kids in the park, or some idiot who comes in screaming nonsensical illthought malicious comments such as "If you don't like it here, leave!" or "I like to stick buildings up my macro sized ass!", I'll probably respond unkindly. I'm not the head of some lynch mob. Neither is the rest of the individuals in the park.
A few other notes: If a guest gets swept, it's because they're a goddamn idiot who most likely showed up saying something along the lines of: "HI DO U WANNA YIFF". I do not hate furries as a whole (I tolerate Molly, don't I?) but I can hardly be faulted for being a little cynical about the genre and it's fans as a whole. I do not hate FurryMUCK. If I did, I'd leave. But my friends are there and it's a decent place to hang out and chat.
On a final note, I like eating babies.

[tugrik.livejournal.com]

[On a final note, I like eating babies.]

You rock. *grins*

(and do look up a few notches to my reply to Seg. I'm not trying to single out people as much as a mindset. Harshness isn't my intent today.)

[popecrunch.livejournal.com]

Realistically, is it any worse than it's ever been, or is it just more visible? Back in the day, when I was a n00b, the park was really, much the same as it is now.. less gamer talk, granted, but the level of hostility that was there was the same: Not a whole hell of a lot. Are there sometimes isolated incidents of people being assholes? Hell yes; I've been an asshole a time or twice. Ever met someone who's never been an asshole? Can you honestly say you've never been an asshole?

Really, before decrying the Park as the most inhospitable place since a dentist's chair, try observing it. I can think of at least two ways right off the top of my head that you could observe the park without cluing anyone there in on the presence of a wiz: there are logs, which are a pain in the ass to try and sort through, and hey, you could always @set yourself D and be invisible. Then maybe you'd see that the park really isn't hostile, at least, no more than it's ever been in the last 5 years. Are people being mouthier about their so-called abuse? Probably. It's like rape statistics: if all youlook at is the numbers, it appears that rape cases skyrocketed in the last 20 years. Try interviewing people about it, and the grim truth is that the REAL numbers are fairly constant, it's just that nobody talked about it 20 years ago or more.

You say that you wished you hadn't used the term 'Night Crew'. It's a little revealing, though, that you mentioned it at all. Whether you regret saying it or not, your use of the term indicates that it was on your mind. Ever wonder if they're really different from the other cliques that have 'taken over' the Park from time to time? Or are they just more spoken of?

In closing, let me clarify one thing: I don't begrudge the wizzes their opinions or thoughts. Hell, as has been referenced above, we're here at your sufferance. I couldn't do the job you guys do, and it's gotta be pretty thankless work. For my own part, I try to keep to the rules, and I make a point of thanking the staff (and really, anyone in general) when they help me. Please don't read into my comments any sort of bashing or whining. Just stating my thoughts.

-Crunch

Just a little bit of history repeating...

[(Anonymous)]

Having been part of FurryMUCK for about 7 years now, I've seen trends come and go. And this is just one of them.

A few years ago, when Random still walked the earth, it was the Yiffers vs Flamers. Each side saying the other should be unwelcome, mostly in WcotP, and for the very same reasons that are being tossed about now. Also, the idea of having guests spawn somewhere else has been bandied about before, at least publically, can't say how much thought the wizards have put to it.

Another thing, those who inhabit the part at other times of the day are hardly clean themselves. I've come to the park in the daytime often enough, to find 1) gropefest, or 2) foaming anti-America rant. Keep that in mind before you start calling for 'measures' to be taken to stop Group That Annoys Me.

As for what's really going on at night, others have already said it as well as I can. I agree with those who say that individual actions should not be mistaken for a group effort. Sure, the night bunch can be a bit chaotic, but any public place with enough people actually chatting will be.


Anja, The Amazing Arabian!