"Does not play well with others..."
Jan. 29th, 2003 01:05 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
tugrikThere's an hour of my life I wish I could get back and do something productive with. I just spent a little while reading the overabundance of screaming-pissed threads over on the ADV-Rider forum. Evidently the place is imploding, and all it took was a tiny little external reality check.
The board has become dominated over the last year by one of the sub-forums, called "JoMomma". It's the screw-around-and-rant spillover area. It's run the gamut of everything from smutty to political to racially insensitive to sexist and then back around again for more. For the most part I avoid it and live on the other, more interesting subfourms -- the ones about trip reports, equipment, ride planning, etc. Even with all the good stuff in the other forums, the critical mass of JoMomma has finally started to spill over everywhere and the board was waaaay beyond the healthy point of Content vs. Noise. The board-owner let this go on far too long because he's actually got a Real Life to lead; I can totally appreciate his position, having been in it myself on various forums and/or Mucks that have had this same class of problem.
Most folks like me just kind of ignored it and stuck to the good bits... so those entrenched in the JoMomma forum revved up to new levels of depravity while we weren't watching (or caring). Then one of our members, a rather stern but honorable fellow I got to meet on more than one good ride, was up at the local biker's hangout named Alice's when he got the reality check. He met two GS1150 riders he'd never met before, and as usual asked them if they'd heard of ADV-Rider, and if they wanted to come drop by.
They both said they had -- and in fact, were lurkers there. They both said, however, that they'd pretty much pegged the site as a hate-board full of petty, thuggish "Look At Us We're Studly Jerks" biking idiots, and they were more than glad to stop visiting it and go on to the other GS-rider places like Micapeak. The impression was given in a short amount of time that the site was pretty much full of intolerant,inconfident males who were lashing out at folks since they were unhappy with themselves.
They rode off to go enjoy their ride without worrying about it... but the ADVRider fellow came back and reported what he just heard on the forum. That post was a test-tap against status-quo of the board... which was apparently fragile enough that it immediately cracked, and within 48 hours is showing a possibility of completely shattering. Already two moderators have resigned, one long-term "Regular" did a full net-removal (deleted all his posts, threads, and his account), and the remaining troublemakers are lashing out at each other trying to staple the blame on anybody but themselves. The whole time the site admin, back from a 90 hour workweek, just takes one look at it and sighs and shakes his head, making vague grumbles about nuking big gobs of the place if it's not died down when he comes back after a good nap.
I like the folks I've met via the board. It's led me to do some incredible things, biker-wise. But, at the same time, I realize it's mostly a testosterone playground that's got way too many folks that could use a good boot to the head. Like a group of afterschool bullies they've driven off many people, including a few locals I know like Timberwoof... but now that they got a good look in the mirror they're lashing out 'cause they don't like what they see. I think I'll just move that URL to the bottom of my 'to visit' page for a few weeks and come back after all the dust settles. I hope something's there when I return.
Why don't I stick around and try to help fix and save it? Well, I've already got enough administrative hassles with exactly the same thing over on FM.
In FM's case, it's known as the West Corner of the Park... in specific, when the gamer-geeks and Night Crew take it over. Much like ADVRider and it's way-too-busy board owner letting the JoMomma forum swell up until it threatened to topple his board, the behaviors going on in WCotP, especially at night, have gotten far too annoying for far too long, and the admins (of which I'm one) really haven't done enough about it. I'm probably more guilty than most, as I made a big effort to help it a while ago, but just let it lax as I started having less and less time to get on the muck in the late-evenings.
To generalize the problem, it's that the WCotP is considered the 'foyer' of the muck. It's the center of the virtual topology, where new characters and guests are first released into the world. It's also the center of two major cross streets and a main destination on most teleport and taxi lists. Consider it a 'town center'. Many diverse people end up in this space. Some are new (guests and new characters). Some are just out to be seen (it's a good public meeting spot) and want to roleplay. Others, and here's the problem, are the 'regulars'. The regulars are usually gamer types ranting on about the kind of things you see in Penny Arcade or pick the videogame-forum-of-your-choice. They've developed a bit of a loose friend-group and a heirarchy of social interaction. They're not quite as cohesive as an actual gang of bullies or anything, but they definately have put together some social-norms that are anything but newbie friendly.
In specific, they tend to stomp on anything they don't care for. It's a *anthropomorphic fandom muck* for fark's-sake, and it's perfectly normal for people to roleplay. However, if someone comes out and tries to do it, all the regulars pounce on them. Many of them think they're helping stamp out smut, as unforunately too many people confuse online sexual interaction for roleplay... something we don't allow in the public PG13 areas like WCotP. Others just hate the noise of someone trying to be playful and fanciful in the middle of their BEST GAME EVAR!1!! chat. Most of them, while they won't admit it, are out to impress each other with just how 'in' they can be. One or more of the social leaders will start a trend (such as the TALK IN ALL BADLY TYPED L33T CAPS, jeffK style) or spread a meme (such as 'all roleplayers are stupid oversexed idiots, ghey, and must be bashed') and the rest of the sheep will follow along. Sometimes it takes weeks, other times months.
As a result, whenever a wiz isn't around the WCotP is usually staked-and-claimed as turf by this nebulous group. Most of the time they're just passing the hours rattling on about games, which is harmless... but the moment someone not in their cluster shows up, it's like throwing meat to dogs. PG13 is regularly broken (yay, swearing), guests abused, and even the harmless and fully-PG roleplay sorts get driven off by attitude or spam-drowning. Each individual action by each individual person usually isn't all that bad -- but as a group they get a seriously in-control vibe going. They know it, feel it... and love it. It's addictive, like being on any 'in' crowd is. It's easy to see why this becomes self-reinforcing. If you show up and help them bash on the newbies... hey, you're part of the 'cool people' now. Much better than being one of those new people getting bashed.
This really sucks because the WCotP is what most newbies see first... and therefore, this behavior is seen as the norm for the whole of the muck.
This problem has been here off and on for years, literally. It's so entrenched that there is no easy solution. Mix in the fact that FM is run by volunteers who pretty much want to stay out of the players' ways and Just Let them Play, and it's again easy to see how this problem can escalate. For the most part we don't enjoy whapping down players, and the 'easy fix' of simply nuking everybody involved (for a while or permanently) just isn't palatable within our developed administrative style. When lines are crossed we do throw people offline, but it's few and far between. There's a lot of hope with each individual whapping that folks will get a clue and clean up their act... but we never really whap enough of them at the same time to break up the feeling of self-empowerment that group bullying/baiting brings.
There are times I fear FM crumbling from things like this, if they're let go way too long. Sure, the WCotP isn't that big of a deal in comparison to the huge size of the rest of the muck and the playerbase. But at the same time -- we're no longer #1, and haven't been for a while. Tapestries and other sites now have huge playerbases... and from what I've been told, far less rules/restrictions. What gets me, however, is a situation much like got my fellow ADVRider when he was up at Alice's.
I've met people on other servers (HLM, There, etc) and in RL (at conventions) that I've asked, "Hey, are you on FurryMUCK?" More than once I've gotten an answer that whapped me good, right across the muzzle. Sometimes it's "ugh, no, it's full of jerks. I showed up as a guest and got treated like crap.". Other times it's "oh, that place? They've got too many rules and they want my damn RL info before I can play. Noooo way.". What used to be the most open-format, open-acceptance place, muckwise, is now seen by some as a bit of a nazi-box with a spiked-pit for a welcome mat. That makes me a bit upset, as it means there's a lot of new players out there that might have done wonderful things in FM's world if they'd not been driven off before they even got started.
Sure, if you're already a long-time player and you spend your time with buddies off in your own areas -- this isn't a problem. You know the good parts and enjoy them. It just sucks in that it makes a place stagnant. FM was far more interesting in its first 4 or 5 years, as the crowds increased and changed. Nowadays it's really hard for a newbie to get into the swing of things without being turned away, or at least turned bitter.
There's no easy solution. Our vast mass of rules and character-creation restrictions have been built up over time like a thousand little scars from a thousand tiny pinpricks. Do we get harsh and start smiting folks until clues are gained, at the expense of possibly wrecking most of a decade of built up rule and precedent? (well, we DO have the 'right to refuse service...' clause, but we've never used it so unilaterally.) Do we start losing RL free time and assign shifts to wizards to simply sit there in the park and glower at people until they freakin' get the clue they can't misbehave -- they're being watched? Or do we just let it keep going, only firing at the rare misbehaving player that actually sticks their head up far enough past the line to give us a clear shot, doing nothing about the big gang of toe-the-line park-denizens that consider the place "theirs"?
Eh. It's probably not all that bad. It just seems like it some nights. It also sucks that I know and like most of the folks involved. I just wish they'd go get clues on their own instead of pushing us admins until we force 'em to.
The board has become dominated over the last year by one of the sub-forums, called "JoMomma". It's the screw-around-and-rant spillover area. It's run the gamut of everything from smutty to political to racially insensitive to sexist and then back around again for more. For the most part I avoid it and live on the other, more interesting subfourms -- the ones about trip reports, equipment, ride planning, etc. Even with all the good stuff in the other forums, the critical mass of JoMomma has finally started to spill over everywhere and the board was waaaay beyond the healthy point of Content vs. Noise. The board-owner let this go on far too long because he's actually got a Real Life to lead; I can totally appreciate his position, having been in it myself on various forums and/or Mucks that have had this same class of problem.
Most folks like me just kind of ignored it and stuck to the good bits... so those entrenched in the JoMomma forum revved up to new levels of depravity while we weren't watching (or caring). Then one of our members, a rather stern but honorable fellow I got to meet on more than one good ride, was up at the local biker's hangout named Alice's when he got the reality check. He met two GS1150 riders he'd never met before, and as usual asked them if they'd heard of ADV-Rider, and if they wanted to come drop by.
They both said they had -- and in fact, were lurkers there. They both said, however, that they'd pretty much pegged the site as a hate-board full of petty, thuggish "Look At Us We're Studly Jerks" biking idiots, and they were more than glad to stop visiting it and go on to the other GS-rider places like Micapeak. The impression was given in a short amount of time that the site was pretty much full of intolerant,inconfident males who were lashing out at folks since they were unhappy with themselves.
They rode off to go enjoy their ride without worrying about it... but the ADVRider fellow came back and reported what he just heard on the forum. That post was a test-tap against status-quo of the board... which was apparently fragile enough that it immediately cracked, and within 48 hours is showing a possibility of completely shattering. Already two moderators have resigned, one long-term "Regular" did a full net-removal (deleted all his posts, threads, and his account), and the remaining troublemakers are lashing out at each other trying to staple the blame on anybody but themselves. The whole time the site admin, back from a 90 hour workweek, just takes one look at it and sighs and shakes his head, making vague grumbles about nuking big gobs of the place if it's not died down when he comes back after a good nap.
I like the folks I've met via the board. It's led me to do some incredible things, biker-wise. But, at the same time, I realize it's mostly a testosterone playground that's got way too many folks that could use a good boot to the head. Like a group of afterschool bullies they've driven off many people, including a few locals I know like Timberwoof... but now that they got a good look in the mirror they're lashing out 'cause they don't like what they see. I think I'll just move that URL to the bottom of my 'to visit' page for a few weeks and come back after all the dust settles. I hope something's there when I return.
Why don't I stick around and try to help fix and save it? Well, I've already got enough administrative hassles with exactly the same thing over on FM.
In FM's case, it's known as the West Corner of the Park... in specific, when the gamer-geeks and Night Crew take it over. Much like ADVRider and it's way-too-busy board owner letting the JoMomma forum swell up until it threatened to topple his board, the behaviors going on in WCotP, especially at night, have gotten far too annoying for far too long, and the admins (of which I'm one) really haven't done enough about it. I'm probably more guilty than most, as I made a big effort to help it a while ago, but just let it lax as I started having less and less time to get on the muck in the late-evenings.
To generalize the problem, it's that the WCotP is considered the 'foyer' of the muck. It's the center of the virtual topology, where new characters and guests are first released into the world. It's also the center of two major cross streets and a main destination on most teleport and taxi lists. Consider it a 'town center'. Many diverse people end up in this space. Some are new (guests and new characters). Some are just out to be seen (it's a good public meeting spot) and want to roleplay. Others, and here's the problem, are the 'regulars'. The regulars are usually gamer types ranting on about the kind of things you see in Penny Arcade or pick the videogame-forum-of-your-choice. They've developed a bit of a loose friend-group and a heirarchy of social interaction. They're not quite as cohesive as an actual gang of bullies or anything, but they definately have put together some social-norms that are anything but newbie friendly.
In specific, they tend to stomp on anything they don't care for. It's a *anthropomorphic fandom muck* for fark's-sake, and it's perfectly normal for people to roleplay. However, if someone comes out and tries to do it, all the regulars pounce on them. Many of them think they're helping stamp out smut, as unforunately too many people confuse online sexual interaction for roleplay... something we don't allow in the public PG13 areas like WCotP. Others just hate the noise of someone trying to be playful and fanciful in the middle of their BEST GAME EVAR!1!! chat. Most of them, while they won't admit it, are out to impress each other with just how 'in' they can be. One or more of the social leaders will start a trend (such as the TALK IN ALL BADLY TYPED L33T CAPS, jeffK style) or spread a meme (such as 'all roleplayers are stupid oversexed idiots, ghey, and must be bashed') and the rest of the sheep will follow along. Sometimes it takes weeks, other times months.
As a result, whenever a wiz isn't around the WCotP is usually staked-and-claimed as turf by this nebulous group. Most of the time they're just passing the hours rattling on about games, which is harmless... but the moment someone not in their cluster shows up, it's like throwing meat to dogs. PG13 is regularly broken (yay, swearing), guests abused, and even the harmless and fully-PG roleplay sorts get driven off by attitude or spam-drowning. Each individual action by each individual person usually isn't all that bad -- but as a group they get a seriously in-control vibe going. They know it, feel it... and love it. It's addictive, like being on any 'in' crowd is. It's easy to see why this becomes self-reinforcing. If you show up and help them bash on the newbies... hey, you're part of the 'cool people' now. Much better than being one of those new people getting bashed.
This really sucks because the WCotP is what most newbies see first... and therefore, this behavior is seen as the norm for the whole of the muck.
This problem has been here off and on for years, literally. It's so entrenched that there is no easy solution. Mix in the fact that FM is run by volunteers who pretty much want to stay out of the players' ways and Just Let them Play, and it's again easy to see how this problem can escalate. For the most part we don't enjoy whapping down players, and the 'easy fix' of simply nuking everybody involved (for a while or permanently) just isn't palatable within our developed administrative style. When lines are crossed we do throw people offline, but it's few and far between. There's a lot of hope with each individual whapping that folks will get a clue and clean up their act... but we never really whap enough of them at the same time to break up the feeling of self-empowerment that group bullying/baiting brings.
There are times I fear FM crumbling from things like this, if they're let go way too long. Sure, the WCotP isn't that big of a deal in comparison to the huge size of the rest of the muck and the playerbase. But at the same time -- we're no longer #1, and haven't been for a while. Tapestries and other sites now have huge playerbases... and from what I've been told, far less rules/restrictions. What gets me, however, is a situation much like got my fellow ADVRider when he was up at Alice's.
I've met people on other servers (HLM, There, etc) and in RL (at conventions) that I've asked, "Hey, are you on FurryMUCK?" More than once I've gotten an answer that whapped me good, right across the muzzle. Sometimes it's "ugh, no, it's full of jerks. I showed up as a guest and got treated like crap.". Other times it's "oh, that place? They've got too many rules and they want my damn RL info before I can play. Noooo way.". What used to be the most open-format, open-acceptance place, muckwise, is now seen by some as a bit of a nazi-box with a spiked-pit for a welcome mat. That makes me a bit upset, as it means there's a lot of new players out there that might have done wonderful things in FM's world if they'd not been driven off before they even got started.
Sure, if you're already a long-time player and you spend your time with buddies off in your own areas -- this isn't a problem. You know the good parts and enjoy them. It just sucks in that it makes a place stagnant. FM was far more interesting in its first 4 or 5 years, as the crowds increased and changed. Nowadays it's really hard for a newbie to get into the swing of things without being turned away, or at least turned bitter.
There's no easy solution. Our vast mass of rules and character-creation restrictions have been built up over time like a thousand little scars from a thousand tiny pinpricks. Do we get harsh and start smiting folks until clues are gained, at the expense of possibly wrecking most of a decade of built up rule and precedent? (well, we DO have the 'right to refuse service...' clause, but we've never used it so unilaterally.) Do we start losing RL free time and assign shifts to wizards to simply sit there in the park and glower at people until they freakin' get the clue they can't misbehave -- they're being watched? Or do we just let it keep going, only firing at the rare misbehaving player that actually sticks their head up far enough past the line to give us a clear shot, doing nothing about the big gang of toe-the-line park-denizens that consider the place "theirs"?
Eh. It's probably not all that bad. It just seems like it some nights. It also sucks that I know and like most of the folks involved. I just wish they'd go get clues on their own instead of pushing us admins until we force 'em to.
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no subject
Date: 2003-01-29 11:56 am (UTC)And if we cut back on the number of wizards, then people complain because they can never get a wizard when they need one.
We try to keep the internal channels open. However, I'm not sure exactly what you think needs to be communicated between us at this point. I know that Aragh has used the "domain owner" thing before, so if he didn't tell you about that, maybe he didn't understand your question. It's certainly not that he doesn't know that we accept requests from domain owners. I don't know, because I don't have any of the details of the conversation that you had. And if we try to make sure that everyone reads everything and every policy is voted on and every I is dotted and every T is crossed, then things bog down in bureaucracy and people complain that things go too slow. You feel like you can't win? Guess what? The wizards (or at least I) feel much the same way. No matter what we do, no one's happy. This is why people burn out on being wizards and go screaming into the night, and why it's nigh-impossible for us to get competent wizards to run the MUCK, because most of the competent people say, "Oh, no. I'm not getting dragged into that."
Mail in?
Date: 2003-01-30 10:18 am (UTC)Also, there are some NON-PAID email servers that require all the same information to get an account as any other server. NCF - National Capital Freenet - is what I first used to try to get a character here. As far as I recall, the requirement for a character request account was that it require more than a *click clikc clik DING here's your account* NCF, for example, has an online registration, which you fill out and send in, and it then gives you an account ID. You then must take this account ID, and fill out a mail in form, with the ID written in the ID portion. It is all the same information as you just sent in, but you now have to either mail it in with proof of your RL ID, or bring it in in person with your ID in your hands. Then they will give you an account....
When I first tried this, I got told that it wasn't pay and that I coulda just made up the account. So I replied explaining that it's not as easy as that. Then I got a response saying 'I just made an account there in five minutes.' I was awed by this, because of the mail in portion of the aplication. I don't know if they've changed since, but at the time they still required personal ID to make you an account there. I really don't think whomever it was that tried to make an account even bothered to read most of what it said, and just did the 'fill out send int oh look there's an ID number I have an account now' O.o It's not that easy. I also don't think they even bothered trying to access said account...
The reason this service is FREE, is because it is a 'not-for-profit' organization. They accept donations, and require annual mail-in/come-in renewals of your account, where they request a donation and will process your renewal faster if you give one. With the annual renewal, it makes it even harder to fudge an account. I've had my account there for over ten years, and to have a wizzard from a muck, whom I would expect would be wise and read and pay attention to things, to tell me that this account which I have had for ten years and have even given donations towards as well as volunteered my time for, was easy to get in five minutes... well, I'm sorry, but that made me lose respect for the wizzard core at FM. And I did try to explain that you had to mail in proof of ID, but I didn't get a reply after that point...
Now that I have a ROGERS account
Also, there are some NON-PAID email servers that require all the same information to get an account as any other server. NCF - National Capital Freenet - is what I first used to try to get a character here. As far as I recall, the requirement for a character request account was that it require more than a *click clikc clik DING here's your account* NCF, for example, has an online registration, which you fill out and send in, and it then gives you an account ID. You then must take this account ID, and fill out a mail in form, with the ID written in the ID portion. It is all the same information as you just sent in, but you now have to either mail it in with proof of your RL ID, or bring it in in person with your ID in your hands. Then they will give you an account....
When I first tried this, I got told that it wasn't pay and that I coulda just made up the account. So I replied explaining that it's not as easy as that. Then I got a response saying 'I just made an account there in five minutes.' I was awed by this, because of the mail in portion of the aplication. I don't know if they've changed since, but at the time they still required personal ID to make you an account there. I really don't think whomever it was that tried to make an account even bothered to read most of what it said, and just did the 'fill out send int oh look there's an ID number I have an account now' O.o It's not that easy. I also don't think they even bothered trying to access said account...
The reason this service is FREE, is because it is a 'not-for-profit' organization. They accept donations, and require annual mail-in/come-in renewals of your account, where they request a donation and will process your renewal faster if you give one. With the annual renewal, it makes it even harder to fudge an account. I've had my account there for over ten years, and to have a wizzard from a muck, whom I would expect would be wise and read and pay attention to things, to tell me that this account which I have had for ten years and have even given donations towards as well as volunteered my time for, was easy to get in five minutes... well, I'm sorry, but that made me lose respect for the wizzard core at FM. And I did try to explain that you had to mail in proof of ID, but I didn't get a reply after that point...
Now that I have a ROGERS account <which does give you 7 different email accounts, by the way>, I managed to get a character. But why should we be required to PAY for an internet account when a free one is redily available that requires just as much personal information as the pay one? Also, for the mail in character request, I don't have a drivers liscence. I'm an adult. I'm not going to send out copies of my birth certificate to non-government organizations to prove this. So how does a non-driving adult prove that they are an adult? Meanwhile to get the character online, you simply have to say 'yes I'm an adult?' *confused*
Re: Mail in?
Date: 2003-01-30 12:32 pm (UTC)There's state ID that's available to non-driving people, as far as adult status goes.
We normally take people's statements that they're adult until we find evidence or hear otherwise, then we require snailmail submission of adult information.
Re: Mail in?
Date: 2003-01-30 05:43 pm (UTC)I'm Canadian... heheh. The only ID that they used to sell for that no longer exsists. I could get a passport,. for 85 dollars, which I could use, but I'm not gonna run out and get that just to get onto a MUCK... heh... and I don't travel, so it wouldn't be worth it.
I know there is one piece of ID I could get, but I recall it going through a bunch of BS about noone accepting it, so decided to wait. Don't know if it's all over with... hmm... and even then, the only thing I'd need it for is FM... *shrug*